Tom Humberstone (creator of How to date a Girl and illustrator of My Fellow Americans and Eagle award Nominee for this year - make sure to go and vote for How to Date a Girl in 10 Days!) takes a couple of hours to go over some topics with me. We discuss how he got into creating hiw own comics, what the future holds for him, and a bit of a discussion about the current state of comics and comic shops. And Tom now just nudged in front of Oli Smith for the longest interview length, so kudos to him!

Hassan: So, first of all, thanks for doing this. Always great to get a fresh interview.

Tom: not at all - I get to talk about myself for a while, it's like therapy.

Hassan: Brilliant. So, to start off with - How did you get into all this indie comics business in the first place?

Tom: Well, I started drawings comics from an early age, but it wasn’t until I was at art college that I started taking it a little more seriously. I started to get pretty disillusioned about art and the students I found myself surrounded by.
One night I drew the first issue of art school scum and photocopied the next day, and covered all the walls of the college with it. I think that was the start of my "career" in the medium, and things sort of snowballed from there. I posted the pages every fortnight anonymously - set up an email address (this is where the ventedspleen name came from) and the feedback was amazing. Eventually, in my final year of college, I printed up a terribly cheap photocopied collection of art school scum and sold them in the student union.

Hassan: So was that a full on multiple page issue? Or was it just some single page illustrations?

Tom: It was just the one page character assassinations that are collected in the current incarnation of art school scum (the slightly better printed version).

Hassan: And all this was at the Norwich School of Art and Design?

Tom: That's right. The local gallery that runs the 'east international' exhibition every year picked up on it and commissioned me to produce a special art school scum for the exhibition.

Hassan: Did you create a lot of copy cats from it? Or was no-one man enough to stand up to the kind of work you were producing?

Tom: Heh. um, well, no-one else was producing comics as far as I know. It was still around the time when most people considered comics to be a pretty base and juvenile artform. Ghostworld had just come out in the cinema and some tutors were pretty interested in the medium but it wasn't exactly considered 'cool'.

Hassan: Yeah. So obviously no-one is going to make a living from UK indie comics, but you seem to be doing pretty well as an illustrator and all round artist. Is this what Norwich School of Art and Design prepared you for? And would you say it's a good route to go for people really interested in that kind of career?

Tom: hmmm.... I’m not sure. That's a big question.

Hassan: Break it down.

Tom: Ha, right. Well, I think it’s certainly useful to study art in some form or another if you want to be a good comic’s artist. But then, there are a lot of people working in comics who didn't train in art at all who are doing some amazing stuff, I think someone who comes at comics from a fine arts background will bring something new and fresh, as will someone who studied English, or science.
If you were brought up on comics, you could run the risk of being totally immersed in that language and the history of it, and find yourself producing fairly traditional or derivative work.
Having said that, a lot of comic artists could do with a bit of life drawing.
What is worthwhile is being surrounded by interesting and fascinating individuals who my introduce you to concepts and ideas you've not considered before.

Hassan: That's true. A lot of self-taught people have never even considered it. I was always told the saying that if you want to break the rules, or exaggerate or modify them, you first need to learn the rules.

Tom: That's very true, particularly with things such as lettering. I always find computer lettering in comics to be very off-putting, but handwritten text needs to be very, very good for it to work, and to do that well, you first need to learn how fonts and type works. (this is all arguable though).
And as far as recommending an art college or a route - most comic artists came to their career in about a million different ways - there is no one way into the artform and I’d just recommend drawing the story you want to tell and keep an open mind.

Hassan: I get what you mean. There's some who just have a natural flair and talent for certain things while drawing, and may be comfortable in their own style, but learning traditionally will teach you things you yourself will have never even considered or come across. Offering a new perspective, really.

Tom: Yes, I agree - look at someone like Chris Ware - he brings a fresh perspective on the language and visual tricks of comics. He’s completely refreshed the grammar of comics, and that only comes from a wonderfully diverse interest in all art, design, literature and a love of the comics medium. My god I’m rambling

Hassan: It's what works best in interviews, trust me.

Tom: This gchat thing is going to make me sound like a total pretentious ass (Hassan: I had to leave this in here!)

Hassan: Well, you studied Illustration and Animation at the school, and decided to take up Animation when you specialised after the first year. Any particular reason? Seems odd since now most of your work is focused on illustration?

Tom: Well, I was fascinated by animation and wanted to learn everything I could about it. I wanted to tell stories I think. And it was a great way to develop a drawing style, when you have to draw 24 frames a second, you learn to draw fast and well!

Hassan: Haha.

Tom: But after my degree I spent a year working in film and I realised it wasn't what I wanted anymore. The film industry sucks your life away and is rather depressing.
I went to art college because I wanted to avoid the soul destroying nature of a white collar 9-5er, and I found myself in a more intense 9-11er with more ego and politics than any other profession out there (bar the fashion industry I’d imagine).

Hassan: What kind of jobs were you doing? And we are talking British films here?

Tom: No - I worked in the post-production for Terry Gilliam's ‘The Brothers Grimm’ and I spent a couple of months on ‘The Corpse Bride’.

Hassan: That sounds like a dream job. I guess it wasn't.

Tom: Not in any particularly glamorous position mind, mainly running (I’d only just graduated) and production assistant roles. Although I managed to spend some time in the storyboard department for The Corpse Bride, which was great fun.
I realised that I wanted to tell stories on my own. I’m not exactly a perfectionist, but I’m a bit of a control freak and I dislike most people when I first meet them so working in a 'tem' doesn't really sit very well with me. Producing a comic gives me the ability to tell a story on my own without having to deal with people - and I have an unlimited budget. I could spend 100 pages telling one person's weekend in extreme detail, or I could create and destroy a universe in a page. What other medium lets you do that?

Hassan: What kind of post-production things were you doing? Or was that just as a runner?

Tom: The post-production was just special effects and editing. In Gilliam's own post-production house.
My examples of what you can do with an unlimited budget were crudely drawn - but you get the idea.

Hassan: After Art School Scum, what was your next project that was released to the world?

Tom: Well, I started doing short comics for a couple of magazines, and had some short stories I’d been drawing for myself.
I'd also started 'you're wrong' as an attempt to continue giving me an outlet for spiteful character assassinations, ala art school scum but without the very specific art basis.
(I'm starting you're wrong again for a new magazine but that's unconfirmed at the moment so maybe we shouldn't mention that).
So I collected all this in an anthology or 'mixtape' which I sold alongside artschool scum when I bought my first table at a comic show. I'd also spent 3 months drawing one page of a comic in one hour every day, the page had to be about my day.
It was an exercise more than anything - but I collected the results of my 'comic diary' at the same convention.

Hassan: Have you ever tried to get your comics published by any indie publishers? Or were they just more personal things that you felt worked better the way you were creating and distributing them?

Tom: Wellllll.... I’ve never felt 'ready' for a publisher. It was only about 2 years ago - when I started How to Date a Girl - that I thought I might get the issues collected at some point and take them to a publisher. There are a lot of great publishers out there for indie/alternative comics (alternative to what? popular? - as Brian Bendis says) but very few in Britain.
I'm almost more tempted to start my own and publish the artists in the UK that I think deserve more attention. I’m currently trying to put together an anthology along the lines of Fantagraphics' MOME.

Hassan: Would you consider your comics very British? I've found them to be pretty universal with the themes you tend to go for.

Tom: Yes I suppose so. How to Date a Girl is set in London and it has references to the city that might, I suppose, be lost to audiences outside of the UK, but I’m very careful to make sure pop culture references, or city-specific references are relevant to the story and honest as to what was actually said at the time. The story, essentially, is about those early stages of romance - finding a connection with someone, and the embarrassment that it all entails and that's a universal theme.
Any relationship - no matter how long it lasts - puts your entire sense of self, your personality, on trial. Who can't relate to the feelings that inspires? (That’s the plan anyway - otherwise that comic is just a self-indulgent rant of the highest order).

Hassan: That's the kind of thing I meant about almost universal themes. That and the character assassinations you've done.

Tom: Well thanks - I appreciate that - it means I’ve done my job as a storyteller. Did you find anything in there that reminded you or your relationships?

Hassan: There were a few things, especially the first kind of semi-awkwardness you get.

Tom: Selling this comic at comic shows - and the people who've responded to it... Well, I must say there a lot of broken men out there.

Hassan: It's something I think anyone can really relate to.

Tom: Stop it, I'm blushing.

Hassan: I's honest and personal while being communal, which is really perfect in terms of storytelling.

Tom: I have to ask - what comics really got you hooked on the medium? Are those sort of auto-biographical tales the thing you look out for?

Hassan: I was introduced to comics on classic Spider-Man stories, the ones Marvel reproduce in those huge black and white volumes. But it wasn't until I read some of Alan Moore's work that I really got into it. You can't find autobiographical comics that easily without knowing what you are looking for.

Tom: True.

Hassan: I did try and find some, because those kind of stories are great, like American Splendor (which can be hit and miss, but when it hits it's pretty darn good). And when I found the UK indie scene it was laden with it, and generally they were pretty interesting stories.

Tom: Really? I guess there's more now.

Hassan: There's a fair few.

Tom: I remember my first comic show (maybe 4 years ago now...) and feeling like the scene was fairly disparate, and unconnected. There were many producing manga style fantasies or superhero spoofs; I guess it’s kind of taking off more now though which is really exciting to see. The autobiographical thing can be tricky though. There has be something worth saying or you run the risk of being overly self-obsessed and alienating your audience.

Hassan: Regards the autobiographical stories, I think it's finding the balance of a communal idea and personal stories, something everyone can relate to, but also you're reading a unique story. The UK scene has really come into its own I think as people have started getting online. I think that's one of the reasons there's been a bit more interest recently, obviously anything online is far easier to find and to share.

Tom: That's true - the internet is both a blessing and a curse though. As Simon Munnery once said - a thousand monkeys WERE given a thousand typewriters - it’s called the internet.

Hassan: Haha. You did your 24 Hour Comic earlier this year, Everything You Never Wanted To Know About Crohns Disease. Was that a challenge doing that? It's one of the best things I've read all year, because of how personal it was.

Tom: Thank you. Yeah, it was hard work. Particularly because we (the other participants) did it at as part of the ICA's Comica. The ICA closes at 11 so we had to run off, get home, keep working, and then return in the morning to finish up. It was intense and there were moments when I didn’t think I’d finish. Your mind starts playing tricks on you, but I was pleased with the end result - there are some things I’d like to have spent more time on and really tighten up but the response to that story has been overwhelming.
It has really connected with people who have the disease and to actually affect people and make them feel better about the condition - without ever having met them - well, that's what this is all about isn't it? I couldn't ask for more.

Hassan: It almost defies the last kind of idea I had about autobiographical comics. I don't think there's anything communal about it, (unless you also have Chrons) but I just think the way you handled it with your style, and the humour employed, made it work really well.

Tom: I’m really pleased to hear that, it was a risk - like I said before, it could have come across as maudlin or really self-pitying but I think the tone worked in the end.

Hassan: It did work.

Tom: Cheers. I'm looking forward to publishing it later this year - I’d like to take it to some comic shows and really get a wider audience to see it. It was always a story I wanted to tell and the reaction to the 24 hour comic has encouraged me to work on a longer, more considered version. (Although I found out Jeffrey Brown - who also has Crohns - is working on his own graphic novel about his experiences with the disease so I don't want to tread on his massively talented toes).

Hassan: I think it'd be something that works better on paper. Not that it doesn't work online, it'd again, just be more personal that way.

Tom: Yeah - comics should be read printed - unless you really have a great idea that uses the computer screen as a canvas and it’s a story that can only be told online (in my humble, possibly grossly uneducated opinion).

Hassan: On the subject, diverting a little, were you always a comic fan in the "US mainstream" sense?

Tom: mmm.... Not realllly. I read some superhero stuff as a kid as most kids do I suppose. I read the Justice League International series written by Keith Griffen and Jim Demattais. Which I recently reread and feel still stands up now. They took the superhero genre and reinvented it as a farcical sit-com, highly underrated. I fell out of love with comics as a teenager but came back to it when I read from hell and Adrian Tomine's Optic Nerve comics. I worked briefly in a comic shop where it was in my interest to read all the mainstream titles in order to chat to customers and recommend things. I discovered a lot of gems along the way.

Hassan: The "mainstream" comics seemed to be brilliant in ‘85, with people trying new things, and it almost looked like comics would be different forever, and it turned out that they weren't, and things kind of relapsed in the 90's.

Tom: I'd agree, the 90s were awful.

Hassan: They were.

Tom: Image Comics has a lot to answer for, and the whole variant covers, speculator environment almost killed the medium. Luckily things have picked up a lot lately. Whether you think the stories were terrible, the 'Civil War', 'World War Hulk' 'Spiderman: Brand New Day' stories have been massively successful. And as scott mccloud points out - if the comic industry gets bigger, then the small niche market of indie titles will get bigger too.

Hassan: One of the things that seemed strange to me when I first read Watchmen, was a lot of things I'd heard about it were along the lines of "changed comic books forever", that sort of idea. And then when I read it, thought it was brilliant, and then you look at the 90's, and even today really and there's almost no trace of it left.

Tom: the watchmen deconstruction of superhero comics... Alan Moore regrets it to an extent - because people read it, thought the point of it was the 'darkness' and 'grittiness' and so we had a rash of awful, violent, rubbish that didn't actually understand what Alan Moore was doing with the form.

Hassan: I just enjoyed the idea of a world in which something happened, and the meticulous detail put into it. It can't be recreated today (or even when Moore did it) because of the way these huge worlds are created and organised.

Tom: Hence, of late, he's been trying to REconstruct the genre with his ABC line of comics, essentially trying to rediscover what was so great about them in the first place.

Hassan: It feels like a one off thing, but it was a risk, and it was written brilliantly, and there doesn't seem to be much of that risk-taking left.

Tom: Yes - and it had political overtones that obviously are less relevant now. He built a comic that had so much attention to detail that you always find something new on each read. Now THAT is someone taking the medium seriously and adding the same levels of depth that a book has and which comic cynics argue our bastard medium can't achieve.

Hassan: Exactly. And he continued to do it, and was even doing it before that on Swamp Thing. It revitalised the medium. He and a few other British writers that went across from doing the likes of 2000AD revitalised the market, if only for a brief period of time. I think it's them sticking to telling stories in 5 pages (the UK norm with 200AD), getting a full 24 page book to have fun in was probably something crazy and new.

Tom: Yep.

Hassan: Again, diverting a tiny little bit, there's one thing I've found bugs a few of the indie creators, and is easily one of the biggest blocks in getting many indie comics seen by the people they should be seen by, is the comic book shop.

Tom: I'd say most comic shops are starting to pick up on the indie scene, take Gosh, or Page 45 in Nottingham, and Orbital Comics - which will sell small press for free. That's a huge incentive for small press publishers when Gosh will take 30%. They also stock a decent selection of alternative titles now which, a few years ago, you might have had to order in. It depend on where you go of course, and let's just forget about the Starbucks of comics - Forbidden Planet.

Hassan: I don't think it’s that that's the problem. It's great having these as outlets, but if you consider why a lot of indie comics are indie and small press in the first place. The terms indie and mainstream when used in comics are almost reversed in the general media, a lot of superhero comics are really small press in the big bad outside world, and a lot of indie comics would really be considered more mainstream with the stories they tell, stories like yours.

Tom: That's true, but we're still wading against the tide of popular opinion that comics are for kids or geeks or socially inept 40 year old men who live with their mums.

Hassan: And the comic shops are so impossibly hard for any non-comics fan to enter, that a lot of what would be a comics audience is being lost. I mean, try selling your 24 Hour Comic to your average Superman or Spider-Man comic fan, and they will probably give you a dirty look.

Tom: Yes, but they aren't my target audience. These comics need to reach people who go to gigs, or galleries, or museums.

Hassan: A lot of indie comics are like that.

Tom: Go the ICA shop and you'll find some wonderful small press or roughtrade or zine symposiums.

Hassan: But a lot of small pressers are really wanting to get their comics in shops, and I just don't think it's a good approach at all. Something like London Underground Comics is brilliant, and really what was needed.

Tom: It’s about reaching the audience you want without using comic shops because, you're right, an average non-comic reader can feel intimidated in those shops.
I'd agree, that's a great way of getting your stuff out there. The sad thing is, comic shops stock 90% superhero comics and thus sell 90% superhero comics so the medium will always be 90% superhero. That won't change - but maybe we could somehow convince the comic shop clerks to stop playing heavy metal and talking loudly about whether Robert Downey Jr. was the best choice for Iron Man.

Hassan: Haha.

Tom: And we might not scare the non-comic readers away...

Hassan: There's too much elitism in comic shops. Last time I went in (and nearly all the other times) there's always people arguing about a certain story or problem in continuity. And when the shop clerk joins in, that's the worst. Even as a comics fan (watered down from mainstream with all the indie stuff I read) even I can feel lost in that situation.

Tom: But I always remember this thing Daniel Clowes said - he argued that he likes working in comics because they fly under the mainstream radar, they're a subversive medium BECUASE people don't expect much from them you can lull people into a false sense of security and get your point across in a very subtle way. It's like Bill Hicks says with comedy too - people are more willing to accept your worldview if you sugarcoat by making them laugh at the same time. So maybe it's best that they stay a little niche.

Hassan: Yeah. But consider the kind of attention Daniel Clowes gets compared to your average UK indie creator...

Tom: Ha. That's true

Hassan: Well, it's pretty obvious we both agree the scene isn't appreciated enough. It's a shame. I've been reading a few articles about "British Comics", even recent articles, that fail to mention the UK indie scene completely. They talk about Alan Moore, Frank Quitely, everyone your comics fan has heard of. The people that actually need the attention are completely forgotten about.

Tom: Right, but that's the nature of a new generation of comic artists. There will a bunch. Some will be successful, enough to warrant some press interest who will group them all together as the new wave... And they'll get talked about in the same breath as the ones you mentioned above, the lucky ones anyway. That, or we'll just be reading Alan Moore, Garth Ennis, and Warren Ellis until they die.

Hassan: Admittedly, compared to the rest of US output that sounds pretty good. Ok, moving again on, this year you've been travelling around America for "My Fellow Americans". Can you tell us how you got started on that, and what kinds of things you've been doing?

Tom: Well, the idea for that all started last summer when Dan (a journalist friend of mine) and I decided we didn't want to watch the most important political election of our lifetimes from afar. We're both big politics geeks and had always wanted to do a road trip around America.
The 2008 US presidential elections are genuinely exciting and we got to observe it (and the American voters) first hand in the crucial first 6 weeks of the primary process. We blogged about it. Dan writing, me illustrating, and we returned a few days after Super Tuesday.
We're collecting the blog with additional images and chapters - which we'll be selling in about a month if all goes to plan. In fact, and this returns to your previous questions about distribution, we'll be launching the book with an exhibition of my original illustrations, there will be bands, and the book will be for sale there.

Hassan: Sounds pretty good. Hopefully I'll get an invite...

Tom: Seemed like the best way to do it from our point of view.

Hassan: Yours is the kind of example, while not being entirely a small press comic, it's something that could be classed as small press. It was basically an illustrated blog of events, but it's something that could sell really well. Especially in England, with an English point of view and not being edited by any news organisation.

Tom: I certainly hope so.

Hassan: Hope the launch goes well.

Tom: Thank you - we'll send the details when we have them!
The idea was do a comic that followed How to Date a Girl that was still autobiographical but dealt with wider themes than relationships. While I’m proud of how to date a girl (particularly the final issue) I want to leave the relationship themes behind me. It feels that there are a lot of comic artists out there dealing the same ideas and possibly doing it a whole lot more successfully than I am (see Craig Thompson, Jeffrey Brown and a host of others). I think I managed to tackle issues that the others haven't - but regardless, it feels time to branch out and the idea of a reportage style comic really excites me.

Hassan: So what kinds of stories and themes can we expect from this new comic?

Tom: Well, it's about America. The relation the British have the country and the people. The politics, and it's about friendship. The nature of being on the road for seven weeks. All of which sounds a little dull but it'll come together I assure you!

Hassan: Heh. Any ideas when this will be released?

Tom: Not until the end of year I’d imagine. I hope to have it ready before the general election in November. Fingers crossed.

Hassan: Good luck with that too.

Tom: Cheers.

Hassan: Even though we've just covered one of the future projects, is there anything else on the horizon for you, comic or otherwise?

Tom: Well, I think this year will be taken up with the My Fellow Americans projects, and publishing How to Date a Girl. I'm planning a few exhibitions of my work, and will inevitably be attending some comic shows at some point. I'm also publishing the 24 hour comic, and maybe another anthology of short stories I’ve been working on.
I'm writing some blogs about Crohns disease for a Crohns website in Canada, and hope to be returning to the US for the election on 6th November. And, of course, there will be various comic commissions for magazines that I’ll be working on.

Hassan: Sounds pretty hectic.

Tom: Yeah, but it's good to be busy and drawing all the time. (on that note - I host a drawing evening every week called pen club - which is every Tuesday if anyone wants to join us and draw/chat/drink) Details on Facebook if you search for pen club London

Hassan: (See end of the interview for the link) A few more things before we can wrap this up... For the reader and creator, what would you say are the benefits of the UK indie scene?

Tom: Well, for the creator I’d argue that you get to tell your story unhindered by anyone else’s input. You get to call all the shots, you won't make much, if any, money - but then, if you want to make money don't get involved in comics. There's always venture capitalism. The reader gets exactly what I’ve mentioned above - a piece of art that is uniquely personal.

Hassan: So what would you say your favourite 5 indie comics are at the moment?

Tom: Tough one, well, are we talking small press here or 'alternative' comics (ie - anything outside of the mainstream).

Hassan: Sticking to UK indie comics, anything that you think qualifies as that.

Tom: Right. Well I’d recommend reading everything by Stephen Collins - scillustration.blogspot.com. He draws short strips for the times and has nothing published yet - but I think he's the closest the UK has got to a Chris Ware. I like Oli Smith's stuff. Stuff Sucks is good - but not sure if it counts as UK.

Hassan: I've never read it.

Tom: Oh dear, this is terrible, I'm completely drawing a blank.

Tom: I know! Fluffy by Simone Lia, and anything by Tom Gauld - particularly Hunter and Painter.

Hassan: Simone and Tom Gauld create some good stuff.

Tom: And Le Gun. An anthology of narrative and comic art by rca gards. Very good stuff in there, and the Sturgeon White Moss anthology, except - despite it being a British magazine - it has mostly American artists in it.

Hassan: Again, something I haven't read. I'll have to try a few of these myself.

Tom: Phew! -wipes brow and feels like he knows something about UK comics for a second.

Hassan: Haha. Well, I guess we can finally end it here, been going at this for a while, is there anything else you'd like to plug or add before we close up the interview?

Tom: Not really. Can't think of anything. It's been fun, although I feel we only touched the surface of the whole indie comics retail/distribution subject. (That could go on for days though).

Hassan: I've had a few people suggest some ideas, but I’m trying not to go too much into it yet, I think it'll be good fodder for the online panel I’ll be doing later on near Summer.

Tom: Sure.

Hassan: But thanks for doing this, it's been good!

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